Andrew: Thank you very much for calling in, Dan. Item No. Fr. Wright (Protestant) and Brant Pitre (Catholic) and others should give the Orthodox pause before too quickly assuming these types of historical considerations automatically vindicate the claims of Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology. Yeah, so heres the thing, that the King James Bible translates this word, when its used for, Fr. Fr. And to get at that, we get some help from some of the Church Fathers. Fr. These. Yeah, and I mean, people do that all the time, like they say theres three wise men. Fr. Fr. When hes turning three pages! The lake of fire that gets mentioned in St. Matthews gospel and in the book of Revelation has no Old Testament precedent, but the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels, as St. Matthews gospel says, is taken directly from the Enochic literature. Stephen: Yes, of material objects and physical space. So the place where its the most threat, inside the sanctuary, thats the place that the Day of Atonement is concerned and focused on, purifying and cleansing from this taint. Fr. Andrew: Okay, but havent I heard that the goat actually got throne off a cliff? Author: Fr. Stephen De Young - The Whole Counsel Blog Stephen: Right, but what happens is, in sort of the symbolic mindhi, Jonathanof the Jewish people, sheep and lambs become associated with Passover. Fr. So we dont know how it was killed. Stephen: Antiochus IVEpiphanes was not his last name. On the Origin of Watchers: A Comparative Study of the Antediluvian Wisdom in Mesopotamian and Jewish Traditions, The Antediluvian Origin of Evil in the Mesopotamian and Jewish Traditions A Comparative Study, Response to Ken Ammi's review of my paper - "Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic? And then as you go out to the holy place and then to where the Levites are dwellingthe Levites and the priests have to maintain this higher level of discipline and holinessand then you get to the Israelites, who have to do this even higher level than the nations. Fr. Atonement - The Whole Counsel Blog Youve got Jerusalem as an established city. Father Stephen De Young's comments on political converts "If you're a high church Protestant, and your denomination starts ordaining women, and that's the only reason you're interested in joining the Orthodox Church, if they had never started ordaining women, you would have happily stayed there your entire life, you should not become Orthodox. Stephen De Young finishes up the discussion of Revelation, Chapter 12, and starts on Chapter 13. Stephen writes in the preface, the Orthodox Churchproclaims that its liturgical ritual and way of life are in complete continuity with that of the apostles This book makes that case. Then the books conclusion has a couple pages suggesting that the Eastern Orthodox Church of today is the most faithful continuation of the apostles legacy. Andrew Stephen Damick in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, and joining me tonight is my co-host, Fr. I know weve said this several times already, but when atonement is talked about in the New Testament, its not referring to some abstract theological idea of atonement; its referring to what happened on the Day of Atonement and comparing, specifically, as were going to see, what Christ does, to that. So theres this orderly, beautiful, purified, sacred space where God dwells with his people, and then chaos is whats on the outside. The Book of Enoch: Scripture, Heresy, or What? Here is another misconception Fr. It has to be made holy, set apart again for the use of God alone. This translation introduced a Jewish flavor into the text to make the Bible more Messianic. Later on in life Ive participated in everything from Passover Seders to Messianic services in an attempt to discover the Jewish roots of my faith. Stephen: through our sin, that actually changes us. Andrew: Yeah Which thats not in there, right? Is it because its being offered to God? Fr. Now, while "the psychological characteristics of the Nephilim are not specifically described in the Bible" neither is that they "had distinct physical characteristics of large size and great strength" nor that they were "generally pictured as being very proud, belligerent, sexually aggressive, and prone to conflicttall, strong, and belligerentphysically intimidatingNephilic characteristics of height, musculature, and psychopathology." Acts, the book of Acts: youve got the coming of the Holy Spirit, filling the creation, on the day of Pentecost, and the day of Pentecost, its the feast of the giving of the Law, but isnt there also a consecration of the Temple associated with that as well, or am I mixing stuff up? Well, for first-century Judeans, that is the place of the Battle of Emmaus, and that is related to the Maccabees. Im going to make it look like that? Andrew: Yeah, Im not into that kind of thing at all. Stephen: Right, now, a couple of key things there. This is so cool. But the Bible indicates that the Nephilim reappeared after presumably being killed off in the Flood. So if you were to translate Azazel as the goat that goes away, then the other one becomes the goat that is who he is and makes things come into being. [Laughter] Like, it doesnt, Fr. We cannot really begin considering "giants" unless and until we define that vague, genetic, subjective term (and I can think of 5-6 definitions). Coming from a Protestant background and having read Revelations a couple of times. And who or what is atoned for? I will examine, of course, the passage itself, the terminology used therein, and the various translations. Fr. What we want is not just to understand salvation but to experience salvation, and understanding the cosmic realities and how we come to participate [in] them, ritually and every other way, is the way that that experience becomes real to us. Basically, you extract its blood. About Fr. I appreciate it. Consequently, I greeted the arrival of Fr. I love it when the fundamental unity between the old and new covenants is shown. They meant it to him for evil, but he meant it for good. [Laughter]. Stephen De Young. Stephen: Do you have to pay royalties now that you said that? Andrew: Yes. Stephen De Young discusses verses 19 and 20 of Galatians, Chapter 3. Andrew: Yeah, so someone comes in: So what did you do, pal? [Laughter], Fr. Okay, so, but there was something else also, a connection from John 17. Matthew 8:14-17, just to summarize, this is where Christ heals the mother-in-law of Peter and then also, after that, lots of people are brought to him who are demon-possessed and sick people, and he heals them He drives out the spirits; it says he cast them out with a word. One of the doctrines that Rabbinic Judaism removed from their religion was the teaching widespread in the Second Temple Period that God is more than one person. [Laughter]. And whats interesting there is people may know that these angelic names that end in -elEl is Godso Gabriel is Gibor-el, the mighty man of God; Michael is Micha-el: who is like God. Stephen: Right, and taken outside the camp. Fr. Is the ecclesial body of Eastern Orthodoxy the most orthodox (faithful to the apostles), or is the most faithfulness to orthodoxy perhaps found in a Protestant denomination, or maybe Roman Catholicism? Andrew: Its a response. So the first covering that happens, the reason this is done on this day, as weve mentioned in previous episodes, is that this is the day that Yahweh chose to appear visibly in the holy of holies. Fr. 190 Court St, Charleston, WV 25301 | Phone: 304-346-0106 | Email: office@stgeorgecharleston.org. Fr. Stephen: Right, and this goat is so unclean, by the way, that the goat would be led out by a designated person and tied to a bush or a shrub out in the wilderness, and the person who did that was rendered unclean by it, from just like being around that goat, the sin-goat. I have this crazy new doctrine of God I want everyone to follow me on. But, yeah, theres this reference in 1 John 3:12, which makes reference of Cain being of the wicked one, who murders his brother. Yes, yes, I do have a question, and it pertains to 1 John 2:2. That was another thing that I was disappointed to discover was actually not in the Bible. Luke uses the Day of Atonement imagery to describe Christ as being the goat that is sent to Yahweh. He is also the host of the Whole Counsel of God podcast from Ancient Faith and author of the Whole Counsel Blog, as well as co-host of the Lord of Spirits podcast. Fr. Kuehn, S., Monster. In what manner is the atoning work of Christ mediated to the world, or could we say that it is mediated to the world by the Church? He is regarded by Josephus, for example, as the first heretic. Because obviously, if you interpret it purely as related to sins and the forgiveness of sins, then not everyone in the world has their sins forgiven, but And so you have to And thats where Peter Lombard in the eleventh century comes up with the idea of sufficiency and efficiency, that Christs sacrifice is sufficient for the world but not efficient for the world, and on and on and on. Thats why this. Theosisbecoming like Godis perhaps the best-known understanding of . How the Devil Got His Hooves and Horns: The Origin of the Motif, "The Embarrassing and Alluring Biblical Giant," online at Bible and Interpretation (2 December 2015). Fr. The ark of the covenant is like a footstool, so theres a throne involved there, and were thinking of atonement as at-one-ment and peace and mercy. So you come up with this mercy-seat thing. Stephen shows convincingly that throughout the Old Testament, God was understood to be more than one person, and this was never a point of dispute during the Judaism of the Second Temple Period. Fr. We are happy to have you. He comes specifically to do combat with the evil one. So Ill take the heat for that one. Stephen De Young concludes Revelation, Chapter 9. Andrew: [Laughter] Thats right. ), Ancient Tales of Giants from Qurman and Turfan: Contexts, Traditions, and Influences (Tbingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2016), The Landscape of Memory: Giants and the Conquest of Canaan. But thats how granular we get. Yeah, thats not in the Greek. Andrew: Indeed. Orthodox Christian priests Fr. Its not anti-Semitic. Fr. Stephen: Right, its a practicality. Fr. But what hes on to is what St. Matthew was talking about. At first, it appears the book will address these questions, for Fr. The only other place where the phrase for the whole world, or the phrase the whole world, tou olou kosmou, occurs in 1 John is in chapter 5, the verse we read: The whole world lies under the power of the evil one. So if you want to interpret the whole world in 1 John 2:2 as referring to the people in the world, then St. John is saying that all the people in the world lie under the power of the evil one, which would include himself and the Church, and that makes no sense in the context of the epistle where hes clearly distinguishing between two groups of people. Copyright 2005-2023 Ancient Faith Ministries, Inc.All Rights Reserved. Its quite all right. Fr. To learn more, view ourPrivacy Policy. But I was misguided. Stephen can write a follow-up book to help us connect these dots. Does it have anything to do with suffering or punishment? Can you hear us? [Laughter] No, theyve got to both be great. Andrew: Yeah, what is it about that blood that actually has that purifying effect? Fr. Stephen: When a pe gets doubled, it gets pronounced like a P instead of an F. Thats why its usually written with two Ps. Dan: Yeah, yeah, thats really helpful. Well see more of that as we go on, but to reiterate here that this is not, in its biblical usage, any kind of specialized technical theological term. Religion of the Apostles: Orthodox Christianity in the First Century As if. Fr. The important thing is just: you have to get the blood out of it. Stephen: Let me add a couple of other things. Stephen: Right. Stephen De Young continues the discussion of Revelation, Chapter 13. That doesnt make it not historical. Im Fr. Remember, the blood of this goat is used to purify sacred space. Fr. Stephen De Young host this live call-in show focused on enchantment in creation, the union of the seen and unseen as made by God and experienced by mankind throughout history. I mean, is is a good goat and a bad goat? Fr. This has just not been my day. Fr. Stephen: Right, and then you can add prefixes and suffixes and that kind of thing, but you have a root that is three letters. Fr. So this is sometimes expressed as there were arguments about them; in reality it was just some communities had them and used them and some other ones didnt have them and therefore didnt. Fr. Fr. And then theres this weird And then at the end of Luke: They worshiped him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the Temple, blessing and praising God. Richard B. Sorensen notes, "Nephilim were said to be a race or a group of people that had distinct physical characteristics of large size and great strength" and that "the psychological characteristics of the Nephilim are not specifically described in the Bible, they are generally pictured as being very proud, belligerent, sexually aggressive, and prone to conflictThe Nephilim are portrayed as men who were tall, strong, and belligerentphysically intimidatingNephilic characteristics of height, musculature, and psychopathology." Did it eradicate it? Is atonement purely theoretical? Fr. One of them Im going to sacrifice, so that one we go and we lay hands on it to say: This is the sheep that were going to offer to God. God Is a Man of War: The Problem of Violence in the Old Testament: De Photius: Yes, sir. Andrew: So its not like the Slavic word that has to do with a gross-tasting bubbling beverage, kefir? Stephen: Theres a tendencyand this is not an indictment of anybody, because, I mean, Ive heard scholars whom I greatly respect publicly talk about, when theyre talking about sacrifices in the Old Testament, say, Oh, yeah, the priest would put the sins on the animal and then kill it, and Im like thats its just not there! You know who you are. Disclaimers, Pauls Works of the Law in the Perspective of Second Century Reception, by Matthew J. Thomas A Review, John the Presbyter: Eusebius Imaginary Friend. We will find that the only reading of the Bible that results in tall tales about "giants" is not a literal one but one which I call a theo-sci-fi eisegetical (pseudo) hermeneutic. Fr. Fr. The answer, according to Fr. 13-26. Review of Richard B. Sorensens paper Was Hams Wife of the Nephilim?, Partial review of Marco Romano and Marco Avanzinis The skeletons of Cyclops and Lestrigons by Ken Ammi, The Nephilim and Rephaim: Satans Seed from Creation and Emergence in the Great Tribulation, Exegetical Discord in Genesis 6.1-4 Hermeneutics: Etiology of Evil Obscured, Open Review of the Center for Rational Theologys Abarim Publications on Nephilim and Giants in the Bible, by Ken Ammi, Response to Richard Sorensens review of my paper Review of Richard B. Sorensens paper, Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic?, Angels in the Targums, An Examination of Angels, Demons, and Giants in the Pentateuch Targums, How Nephilim Absconded from the Tanakh and Invaded Folkloric Territory, A review of Adrienne Mayor's paper "Giants in Ancient Warfare" by Ken Ammi, When Gods Roamed the Earth: Thematic Parallels to Gen. 6:1-4 from the Ancient Near East, Review of Richard B. Sorensens paper, Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic?, The Council of the Titans: The Old Greek Gods Among the Amorites, "The Giant in a Thousand Years: Tracing Narratives of Gigantism in the Hebrew Bible and Beyond," in Goff, Stuckenbruck, and Morano (eds. In Hebrew, thats Yom Kippur, which is this annual commemoration thats made by the people of God in ancient Israel, but its an addition to the regular sin-offerings that are to be done every day. Stephen: Yeah, weve covered a lot, and a lot of big stuff, so this one is kind of the hardest button to button. The Centar za Racionalnu Teologiju/Center for Rational Theology has produced some information regarding Giants in the Bible including that Everybody knows about GoliathAnd the enigmatic Nephilim and that, additionally, there are quite a few more giants and giant races mentioned in the Bible. They also elucidate The name Nephilim etymologically. Stephen: And youll see it in even Orthodox translations, because a lot of our early Orthodox translations were either utilizing or aping the King James Version language, and so you can kind of see how you can get there, like if you go from a very developed theological idea, where you dont really know what the Hebrew word means, so youre thinking, Well, okay, God is enthroned behind the ark of the covenant, between the cherubim. Many people dive into discussions about giants without defining the key term: Just what is a giant? But its in Leviticus 16, and the purpose of it We often think of it in terms of: Well, this is atoning for people or Israel and the bad stuff they did, but the ritual is explicitly stated to be atoning for the altar of incense, atoning for the ark of the covenant, atoning for the space within the tabernacle. Journal of Biblical Literature 106 (1987), pp. The whole goat is burned after the blood is extracted. So Greek words in the New Testament are treated as these sort of independent entities without reference to what theyre translating, and then that allows you to pack a whole bunch of things in. So thats what were going to do now. Instagram, RSS & iTunes To him ascribe all sin. [Laughter]. And then, so the Israelites are referred to as sheep sort of all through the Old Testament, and their leaders as shepherds, because theyre these sheep who are now set free from Egypt and brought out into this new pasture, all of that symbolism. How does God make it happen?. Fr. And now were going to turn towards the New Testament. Yeah, so St. Matthew uses this language to describe I mean, to describe exactly what happens to Christ at the crucifixion. Andrew: Yeah, like the altar has be reconciled to God? Fr. Its sort of like death stuff. So you use life stuff to purify from death stuff.. Fr. And what hes doing here is hes taking this idea of the purification of sacred space, so if we imagine that theres sort of this layer of darkness over the whole world and theres sort of this dome, a dome of light over Israel, over the camp in the wilderness, over Israel as a nation, over Judah, Judea, and thats being purified sort of under the dome, is being cleansed and purified and being kept pure. And again, this is all about not dying. Stephen De Young, have been podcasting together recently and shared about these five-ish angelic falls. Fr. That is not a false etymology, although usually etymologies that go like that are; theyre just nonsense. Stephen: Right, and what St. Matthew conveys there with His blood be on us and on our children in narrative theology, Hebrews just comes out and says, in Hebrews 9:18-22, that says, They were sprinkled with the blood. I have two good friends who left the Orthodox church and now refer me to the Old Testament to clinch some version of the following argument: See, substitutionary atonement is real, so the Orthodox are actually heterodox when they deny this. Well folks, the Orthodox Church does teach substitutionary atonement, and if you dont believe me, read chapter 7 of The Religion of the Apostles. Fr. Andrew: I know. They have to be the best goats, both of them are the best goats. Stephen: And finally, be sure to go to ancientfaith.com/support and help make sure we and lots of other AFR podcasters stay on the air. This paper explores a possibility that may not have been previously considered that the wife of Ham (one of the sons of Noah), who was one of the individuals present on the ark, was born from Nephilim stock. Fr. Thats okay. Andrew: Thats what it is. Fr. I was pleased to encounter Sorensens Response to Ken Ammis review of my paper Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic? since I am always up for a discussion, always up for correction, and always up for sharpening iron with ironeven when it tends to lead to someone getting cut. Andrew: Right, right. All right, so weve covered the basics of the Day of Atonement ritual and the two goats, here on Goat Week on The Lord of Spirits, and were going to get back in just a moment, but first were going to take a short break, so well be right back. This is like Joseph in Genesis. Stephen: Maybe it was once used to cover something. And then, when eventually Israel makes its way to the promised land, its Israel, and then the nations are out there. Stephen: I love it when a plan comes together. Fr. Stephen: Yeah, I mean you may have to deal with this mercy-seat stuff, but now you know how that works, so youre all set for Leviticus. And I looked this up: what is the earliest use of this word? Stephen: Yeah, theyre going to cast lots, and ones going to go for one purpose and ones going to go for the other. He holds a PhD in Biblical Studies from Amridge University. But Israel knows the Day of Atonement ritual. And then, verse 17, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the Prophet, saying: He himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses. So Matthew is saying this is now fulfilled, the Suffering Servant passage of Isaiah, by Jesus healing ministry of sickness and demon-possession. Andrew: [Laughter] That we always get! Fr. Critical Review of Fr. Stephen De Young's "Here There Be Giants" So its not about me, or me and Fr. Okay, so how is that related to what weve been talking about? Andrew: Right. Fr. So its the same thing in terms of ordination. Fr. Stephen: And these things that the evil one has wrought in the world are here in the world and need to be purged out, need to be purified, need to be atoned for in that sense, need to be removed, wiped away, blotted out. Stephen De Young. Stephen is also the host of the Whole Counsel of God podcast from Ancient Faith and author of the Whole Counsel Blog. March 12, 2021 Andrew: Dont you know that yalls body is the temple of the Holy Spirit? 1 John 2:1 talks about Christ as the high priest who intercedes in prayer, and then 2:2 says that Christ is the atonement, not only for our sins but also for the whole world. Well, who would have been doing this? But, yes, this is St. Matthew is deliberately subverting a potentially anti-Semitic reading of this. Stephen: Well, this is So, Hanukkah is the re-dedication of the Temple. Weve got a few things that we kind of need to sort of mention, and its interesting actually: the first thing thats on our list, which is in our notes, was something someone actually sent to me saying, Hey, you guys going to mention this? and thats the image of whats called the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 53. Andrew: Yeah, so there is some overlap there, but, yeah, its not a perfect, total, categorical overlap. because I know the Protestants like to interpret that as shifting their sins onto the animal so that it works with their penal substitution model. Fr. The Religion of the Apostles: Orthodox Christianity in the First Youre not sacrificing a goat to Yahweh and then sacrificing another goat to Azazel. Fr. Fr. So the Torah and its rituals, including the Day of Atonement, cant be an end in themselves. Religion of the Apostles: Orthodox Christianity in the First Century And so this is what St. Matthew is seeing, too, in the Prophet Isaiah, that by Christ becoming man and living in this world and suffering and experiencing human weakness voluntarily, etc., etc., that by doing that, he is healing our humanity. The laying hands on someone or something is setting them apart, which means making them holy, sanctifying them for a purpose. So theres two goats, right? Christ is both goats. What does that stuff say about him? Fr. Fr. So, okay, Christ is both goats. When I say scholarly I mean that the book has emerged out of Fr. Dan: Yeah, the second question was: What was it about their understanding of the goats blood that was understood to have a cleansing or sanctifying effect over the various parts of the holy of holies and the Temple that you guys discussed? Well, that is our show for today. Rather, the doctrine of God being multiple hypostases was already widely accepted even before the incarnation. Stephen: So, easy way to prevent that: push him off a cliff, dump him in a hole. Im getting a little giddy here, because when we were going over this in our preparation, it was just stunning to me: once you have clarity about, especially what the Old Testament says, theres all kinds of bits of the New Testament that just light up, left and right. Thats where the feast comes from, the feast of lights. So you have to go back past the Greek a little bit. [Laughter]. Thats his indictment; thats the charge against him. Dr. Stephen De Young, creator of the popular The Whole Counsel of God blog and podcast, traces the lineage of Orthodox Christianity back to the faith and witness of the apostles, which was rooted in a first-century Jewish worldview. Fr. The Whole Counsel of God: An Introduction to Your Bible: Stephen De All right. On our next episode, were going to be starting a two-part series on sacred geography. Fr. Fr. We had the Sunday of the Last Judgment, so weve had goats on our minds. Fr. Well do an ark of the covenant episode, just about that. Fr. Stephens historical research dismantled beliefs that I held in common with thousands of other modern Christians about the Bible and its teachings. Fr. And so, start with a verse near and dear to my heart, because I spent a chunk of my life with it, and thats 1 John 2:2. I can describe to you the inner workings of countless fictional universes. Stephen De Young The Very Rev. Father Stephen De Young's comments on political converts He picks up this idea of the eschatological Day of Atonement, and he says, Its Christ. So theres this idea that works were being taught and handed down. So lets talk about what St. John says about this. I know people are being moved to sympathy for the goat in all this. For those of us in the Byzantine rite of the Orthodox Church, which is most Orthodox Christians, this last Sunday was the Sunday of the Last Judgment, in which we heard Matthew 25, where we heard that sheep go to heaven and goats go to hell. Stephen offers a firm, yet never harsh or condescending, corrective to any interpretation of the Old Testament that seeks either to allegorize or demythologize . Stephen De Young and Fr. AFP publications include: The definition is not as simple as it may seem, since some may employ it metaphorically such as referring to a giant of industry. In case you miscontrued everything I just said: Youre not worshiping Azazel. Stephen: This goat-spirit of the wilderness is then picked up in a lot of later imagery, probably the most famous being Baphomet, this sort of Satan-figure or devil-figure. The book is deeply scholarly and deeply spiritual at the same time. He preferred the terminology for the sacrament of the Lords Supper in order to present it as a meal,1 which he saw as standing in sharp contrast to the sacrificial conception.2 While Calvin himself consistently maintained that the Eucharist represented a real sacramental communion in the body and blood of Christ, this disassociation of sacrament and sacrifice led much of later Protestantism to reject even the sacramentality of the rite.